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by **mlsterben** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:38 am

terribleparable wrote:Having a padawan is something jedi knights usually do both to instruct a young jedi and gain some insight themselves, and usually when your padawan is ascended to knight rank the teaching knight is raised to master rank.

People do often say that teaching is the best way to learn. Too bad they couldn't teach him how to not be a whiny bitch. :lol:

by **joerules** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:44 pm

Ah yes.

by **terribleparable** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:40 pm

joerules wrote:What's kind of morbid?

Continuing to tell stories of Anakin Skywalker's exploits in the Clone Wars when you know he's basically going to kill the entire supporting cast in a few months/years.

by **joerules** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:32 pm

What's kind of morbid?

by **terribleparable** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:26 pm

joerules wrote:But... he IS a master in the CLone Wars movie. He gets a Padawan, he's given tasks equal to Obi Wan. He out performs everyone. This is the tales of Anikan the Jedi Master.

If you go back to the first pages of this thread you can read my problems with that but there is some good in telling these tales.

But he never actually attains the master rank. He's given high-ranking missions as an acknowledgment of his skills as a jedi, but he's never considered mature or balanced enough to be a master (and certainly not a council member, that was a sticking point in Revenge of the Sith).

Having a padawan is something jedi knights usually do both to instruct a young jedi and gain some insight themselves, and usually when your padawan is ascended to knight rank the teaching knight is raised to master rank.

And at this point I'm just bashing Lucas again, sorry, I'll stop. I've already made my opinion of Clone Wars known, it's just kind of morbid.

by **joerules** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:15 pm

But... he IS a master in the CLone Wars movie. He gets a Padawan, he's given tasks equal to Obi Wan. He out performs everyone. This is the tales of Anikan the Jedi Master.

If you go back to the first pages of this thread you can read my problems with that but there is some good in telling these tales.

by **terribleparable** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:13 pm

Joe - But he's not a master in Clone Wars, he's the same old whiny knight who has to be chaperoned.

opie301 wrote:And here I have to disagree with you. I think the whole point of this character is that he is young and full of power. He is young and reckless. During his time as a Jedi there is nothing that he has not been able to accomplish with the force, except save his mother. This is a boy who has only ever seen the Force as a tool.

--- snip ---

The corruption of a mature Jedi Master doesn't reflect the relationship that Vader and the Emperor share in the classic trilogy.

You're totally right about the first bit, but I think it still comes down to poor storytelling that Lucas effectively forced Vader to mature between movies.

The discrepancies between the Vader we know and Anakin Skywalker are too great to reconcile off-screen. By having Vader actually mature in the first three episodes (which could've been done by cutting out a lot of the Attack of the Clones fat and actually delving into the 20 years between episodes III and IV) and find some kind of tenuous balance in the Force would've made fall to the dark side so much more dramatic. I think aging him would've made his role as the Chosen One seem more assured, it would've allowed the jedis to relax a bit and think they'd done well, and it would've increased the heartbreak as they saw Anakin turn.

As for the second bit, I'd argue that any relationship with Sidious would be master and pupil, father and son. Those are the kinds of partnerships Sidious asserts, you're never his equal, you're always the caesar to his augustus.

by **opie301** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:13 pm

terribleparable wrote:I just think it diminishes Vader as a character, and that toppling a noble jedi master from grace would've been so much more evil.

And here I have to disagree with you. I think the whole point of this character is that he is young and full of power. He is young and reckless. During his time as a Jedi there is nothing that he has not been able to accomplish with the force, except save his mother. This is a boy who has only ever seen the Force as a tool.

The seeds were planted very early, by none other than Qui Gonn, that the rules of the Jedi are restrictive and binding; that the Jedi Code is the only thing holding him back from using his power to bring about real change.

He has been on the road to the Dark Side from the very beginning. But it is as a young man, chafing under the restrictions of the Jedi, that this fall makes sense. This is a corruption by a father figure, Palpatine, who is telling Anakin that all of his dreams can come true if only he rejects the Jedi, who keep such knowledge secreted away from him.

The corruption of a mature Jedi Master doesn't reflect the relationship that Vader and the Emperor share in the classic trilogy.

by **joerules** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:54 pm

Annnnd that's the point of the Clone Wars. So that we can see his adventures as a master of the Force.

by **terribleparable** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:23 pm

Not to reduce this thread to Lucas bashing, but the more I think about it, the more I think having Hayden Christensen back for Episode III was just lazy and detrimental to the plot.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think Vader turning evil at age 25 (or so) and as a jedi knight removes some of the prestige of the character. Having Vader turn at such a young age means was never a serene master of the force like Yoda or Qi Gon Jin, he was a whiny overgrown teenager who never grew up and allowed his infantile possessiveness to destroy his life.

I just think it diminishes Vader as a character, and that toppling a noble jedi master from grace would've been so much more evil.

by **Tom Brazelton** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:06 pm

terribleparable wrote:
gerbo321 wrote:But I didn't hear any of you bitching during the first Clone Wars series.

Good point, but I'd argue that the first Clone Wars cartoons benefited from better timing (released right after episode II, so they acted as a bridge to Revenge of the Sith)

This.

Within the context of the prequels, Anakin had not yet "turned." So it was relevant to show his exploits during The Clone Wars.

But after Episode III hit theaters - after Lucas and company SHOWED us the evil Anakin does - the genie is out of the bottle. It becomes much more difficult to go back and say "Ignore what's going to happen next in the saga. Let's go back and revisit some of Anakin's wacky adventures!"

It feels like a bait and switch.

by **terribleparable** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:43 pm

gerbo321 wrote:But I didn't hear any of you bitching during the first Clone Wars series.

Good point, but I'd argue that the first Clone Wars cartoons benefited from better timing (released right after episode II, so they acted as a bridge to Revenge of the Sith), their inherent novelty, and their wider scope of characters. There were huge story-archs in those little 5 minute gems that didn't include Anakin or Obi-Wan at all. And while I'm not a very big fan of Tartakovsky's "show the exact same incidental thing happening over and over again" approach to direction he managed to make Force battles fun to watch.

Clone Wars 3D is clearly a Lucas/Anakin joint, and at this point Anakin Skywalker is like George W. Bush, nobody wants to waste time on that asshole anymore.

by **joerules** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:03 pm

I'd love to see stuff from the future done but I don't think that or, "we know how this is going to turn out" are good enough reasons to write this stuff off. Isn't the journey better than the conclusion? Uggh, even I don't believe that bullshit half the time, but more Star Wars in my mind is hardly a band thing. they're doing some fun expansions here and I'm eager more to see how they'll expand the universe than I am to see what battles Anikan wins.

by **mlsterben** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:10 am

mailer daemon wrote:I wouldn't mind a show of "Who Darth Vader kills this week", but that just wouldn't market well.

I think, if done properly, it could market well. Just have a bunch of really short episodes, like the Clone Wars cartoon series, and have Vader kill people in interesting ways, or just have people randomly getting Force choked, like in that SNL "Punched Before Eating" thing.

by **gerbo321** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:27 am

So I guess you guys aren't the type to belief that the journey is more important then the destination? I really don't see why you can't ignore what is coming and just enjoy what is in front of you. If you don't like the show because you don't like it, that's fine. But I didn't hear any of you bitching during the first Clone Wars series.

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